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Blu-ray vs. HD DVD

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Microsoft, Sony and dozens of other large corporations have spent years NOT agreeing on a standard format for the next generation DVD. The result: two separate and incompatible formats are being offered to consumers. Eventually, like Betamax and VHS before them, one will win and one will lose. As of now, which one will win and which one will lose is uncertain. What is certain is that consumers will lose. Why? Some consumers will buy the losing format and end up with obsolete equipment. Many more consumers will buy nothing until after there is a clear winner - and prices will remain high until a mass market is developed.


It is our belief that we the consumers can determine the winner in this format war. How will we do this? By having YOU vote for the format you prefer to win (Click here or on "Comparison between Blu-ray and HD DVD" link in the "Learn More" section to the left to see a comparison between the two formats). Then we all agree to buy the format that wins the vote. OK, it's as much a social experiment as a consumer stand. But our goal is clear - push the losing format to drop out. Let's take control! WHY DID YOU VOTE AS YOU DID? Share your thoughts in the forum below.
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My PS3 is only obsolete for another week, and then it becomes 2.0 future proofed! lol

Carl T. I believe that in one hundred years you will still have not understand this war. And for the other's look at this m/news/editoria...

After reading here a bit, I don't think you EVER understodd this war. Carl, who you seem to have attacked along with your buddie Ron, spoke more truth in any one of his sentences than all of your combined messages put together.

Thank you S M, hopefully Carl T. can get a clue. If the numbers are too confusing he should try the line graphs. I have consistently predicted higher costs for BR pricing should Sony win the format war. The weeks since the end show my predictions to be absolutely correct.

Your predictions are just about as good as your choice in formats. Worthtless.

Gentlemen: Allow me to ask a very simple question. As HD DVD enthusiasts/owners, and moreover, having restated on numerous occasions that you (and numerous others,) are entirley contnet with your purchases; as they are excellent upconvering optical disc players, why do you sit an analyize sales and pricing data for the competing and triunphant Bluray product? What's the point of this arduous fact-finding mission you and others seem compelled to participate in? And, with but a tiny fraction of the previous "traffic" that this (and other) X vs. Y forums used to generate, who are you trying to persuade - me? All of this seems to be analogous to arguing about an election weeks after the final vote was cast; and the winning candidate has already been sworn into office. I simply don't understand your zeal, your interest, your motives or your confounded sense of basic economics.

Carl you need to seriously learn to read. Even prior to the demise of HD DVD, I am clearly on record stating that I will buy BR; but only when it is finished and when more reasonably priced (when I can pay what it is worth!). Past that the same can be said to you, more so to you why do you care what purchases I or others make, or whether we have, are or ever will purchase BR technology. Our listings are facts posted for those who have not yet bought. I for one do not believe the time is right to buy BR yet. See the quote from Tom's hardware, it about sums it up. You are the one being personal, invading our right to choice, our right to opinion, questioning my right to make an educated purchase and in so doing educate others. My right to own what I choose, when I choose. Are you that doubtful of your BR purchase? Are you somewhat miserable with your investment and as misery does looking for company to lift your spirits. Have you heard about XBox HD downloads and Sonys foray into the same for PS3, does this make you realize even Sony doesn't have long term plans for BR? When Sony produces and markets a FINISHED product at a viable price (after all its not 1982 any longer), if there are no other options by that time, like a high quality e-movie, I will make my move to BR. Until then I will enjoy HD movies on my obsolete HD DVD player, while you enjoy them on your obsolete BR player.

Allow me to address your questions one by one just to set the record staright. Then, after having done that, you'll hear No MORE from me as I simply think that we're both beating a dead horse. (1) Thanks for the tip, but I'll rely on the level of reading comprehension that's gotten me through HS, college and nearly 30 years as a middle-manager in Corporate America. (2) I DO NOT care what you buy or when you buy it, or if you buy it at all. Frankly,it's none of my business. (3) If an apology is in order for my invading or impeding your right to choice by way of a few contrary pro-Sony pro-Bluray comments, you have that apology. I had no idea that you or anyone else was that sensative reagrding an optical disc format. (4) No, I have experienced absolutely no remorse for having purchased my Sony Bluray player. It continues to look/work/sound like a "dream." More importantly, it was my descision to purchase it AND my personal finances that made the purchase possible.(5) Of course I've heard about D/L movies in high resoultion. And although many will probably seek their entertainment via downloaded material, a far greater share will not Iin my opinion.) I don't see it as any measuable threat to optical disc, nor do I see downloads minimizing the stability or marketability of the Bluray format/product in the forseeable future. (6) Comments about Bluray being incomplete are over-stated. Of course their will be enhancements to the product. That is the nature of contemporary electronic gadgetry, whether it's a cell phone,.mp3 player, PC, Bluray (or other) means of visual entertainment. Watch for UHDTV. In one resolution or another, it will "probably" make it's way to the consumer market as well. Note that not too long after the HDTV standard was established, 1080p supplanted 720p/1080i. Why would I be so naive' as to think that home theater viewing will remain stagnent? The migration to a 1080p marketing standard was sinply a faster cycling technology than the associated audio standards which have expanded from 2-channel stereo to 5:1, 6:1, 7:1 and so on. Lastly, it certainly isn't 1982 anymore. And though 1962 was truly a far better time in which to live, I'll take '82 over 2008 anytime- and- I'm not neccessarily talking about electronics. Enjoy yourself. Buy a Bluray player if and when you decide to, or don't ever buy one. It's hardly an issue worthy of anymore discussion - at least on my part. Regards and Good Luck.......Carl

Thank you for your nice post Carl. I do not believe an apology is necessary and certainly would not regard myself as sensitive. The issues I have and take are primarily these two 1) The automatic assumption that it is not necessary to read any more than the posters name to 'know' what they have posted (i.e. Ron C always posts HD DVD articles and slams BR) 2) The attitude of most BR owners that any who do not follow in their footsteps, and run out now and pay whatever the now price without question is, are BR haters and Sony haters and only flame the product. You can see this particularly with posters like Ted M and Mark G and Charles L (who, it seems, no longer posts here). I pride myself on careful research, and posting documented and quantifiable facts. Not fantasies about my favorite products or manufacturers. As an executive of the business I co-founded for over 18 years this approach has always worked well for me and said business. I believe in my opinion that while you are mostly right d/l or streaming will not supplant BR in the NEAR future (foreseeable future is a long time), I also believe you have severely underestimated them. I also believe, in my opinion, that at the rate Sony is working to finalize BR and right it's price, this technology may become a very viable force against them. Although you are correct about tech changing Sony and BDA partners have all admitted to releasing BR before it was finished. The features they are adding already existed in HD DVD and were suggested to Sony by the DVD Forum even prior to HD DVD's existence. Sony has choose to add those features to keep the value of the product artificially inflated. By the way you will note if you have read my posts I have never denied the concept of purchasing BR, the issue at this point in time is when, moreso than if.

RFOLMAO. you say "I pride myself on careful research, and posting documented and quantifiable facts" I've read most of the past posts you made and especially paid attention to the posts of Ted M and Mark G and Charles L that you slam above. You are so off the base and they were all so on base, it only leads me to believe that you are completely dillusional, or still just an hddvd fanboy that hasn't yet cut the chord, bittered by the war, and not yet over the loss. Who the h3ll cares about $400 when you have a $4000-$10000 audio/TV system in your house? Mass adoption will take it 'natural' course just like with DVD, and any other new technology of its time, unlike the 'unnatural' firesale prices that you and other hddvd fanboys have become accustomed to as being the norm.
If money is tight, then wait a year or so until prices naturally mature, but if you have anything more than $2000 in total worth of audio/video equipment in your house and you're complaining about $400, then you are out of your mind. Stop preaching that blu-ray prices are too high and are either not coming down fast enough or are increasing. You seriously need a lesson on the economics of a relatively new technology coming to market, in terms of MSRPs. I wonder if you are out of your mind, or just were one of the few who got caught up in the 'unnatural' Toshiba firesale storm that has left so many disillusioned about what 'natural' pricing is or should be.

Well Charles L apparently you cared about the $400 as you could only commit to purchasing a game console not a video player. Nice safe purchase, not really a commitment to the standard. Congratulations. BTW Charles L, I guess you do believe your postings and those who post similiar to you are great; but thats a little biased now isnt it.

I'm not a big fan of Sony as they charge more for similar items with less feature. Consumers reviews are not the best for their products compared to similar products from other manufacturers. So with Sony in charge I do not expect the Blu-ray player to come down very much and the product to be so so in performance now they do not have anyone to complete with.

Sony sucks

I believe the name is what eventually wins out in the end....glad I bought a blu-ray player!

Haven't hear anything from "Rabid Rex" lately. Some of you may recall that in addition to being an HDDVD fanaholic, he was also a Retail Store owner, electonic engineer (later, an electronic repairman,) marketing wizard and soothsayer.

Just curious as he was so VERY VOCAL within this forum. Swore he'd NEVER sell a Bluray player. Best guess, Rex is either selling his remaining inventory of HDDVD players at a flea market, or perhaps, he was lynched by one the "hundreds" of customers that he sold a Tosiba player to.

------------------------^-----Is one of the hundreds who bought one and is very, very happy. At $150.00 for a HD-A30 + 7 HD-DVDs. I knew it was over for Toshiba. I'm not out much and I'm able to enjoy HD @ 1080p. Also on the plus side it's a much better upconverter then the ones out there ie. oppo or Denon who payed alot more. I will be enjoying mine for a couple years till the prices come down on BR

Yeh, I'll bet he's very very happy alright. I do agree, however, that you are most likley correct in saying there are hundreds who bought (HD DVD) and are also very very happy. I just wonder how happy the other 900,000, or so, purchasers are? There have been an average of 500+ HD DVD players for "pennies" on the dollar, new and used, everyday on eBay for the past 3-4 weeks - and many are bundled with a number of accompanying movies. I'ts, ahh, a buyers market.

You Know What Thats a great idea I'm buying mine off amazon as I speak. our pawn shops in my town is filling up with HD-DVD movies. it beats them blu-ray prises right now besides there is NOT a thing sony makes thats worth $400.00 or more

NOT a thing that Sony makes is worth more than $400?
That's a rather bold statement. Forget about Bluray for the moment. Would you not pay $401 for a brand new Sony 46" Bravia XRD LCD television? Or, how about any of Sony's Flagship ES Home theater products? you made the statement, not me. Your reply, if there is any, will make for interesting reading.

OK You got me(LOL)However I have had many products from sony 2 TV's 4 DVD Players. I currently have the DSP-NS90V DVD Player It takes forever to load its light put together kinda cheap The remote is flimsy Slow to respond the whole thing just don't seem to be worth the $199.00 that I paid for it BUT I bought it because (IT'S A SONY) I have bought my Kids PS2 The big and the little one There life was also short compared to the X-BOX 360 they have now. In another statement you made about having a Jeep and does that make you a Chrysler puppet. Well Lets see.Do You dog and criticize people who don't have nor want chrysler for there vehicle. See in my opinion All blu-ray player makers are building there players to sony's specs And here we are again take forever to load the remote is slow to respond and so on and so on. All The players on the market right now are staring down the barrow of being obsolete. I WANT HI-DEF DVD!! BUT I want the **** thing right the first time around for my hard earned money so to answer your question "would I pay $401.00 for a sony lcd" probably not because I know that right next to it would be a LG or samsung or Mitsubishi for $399.95

Hi, I am extremely happy with my Sony Blu-ray DVD Player. We have had it about 6 months now. Our regular movies have really been enhanced let alone the Blu-ray Movies that we have purchased. The movies on this player are plain awesome.I am glad the war is over so hopefully we will get the movies we want on Blu-ray. Only thing I am concerned with is, if there is no competition will we see them go down in price. Yes, I do know they have a small selection on sale right now on Amazon (bought a few yesterday). But, they all need to go down in price. I figure I will get the ones I really want when they are half price or I will continue buying the regular Movies because they are still enhanced nicely. So the player is not a waste regardless if I never buy another Blu-ray movie.It's up to them if they want sales or just sit on the selves. We still have a option the way I look at it.

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Your concerns are legitimate. Despite Carl T's rabid fanboy comments, the number have shown a rise for bluray player costs. Its a logical move to increase prices to recoupe the promotional costs of outspending your opponent in a format war. (Yes, bluray was losing more per unit than hd dvd even after fire-sale price slashing by toshiba). Fortunately for bluray fans, in a year or two there should be sub $300 profile 1.1 players (not before the holiday season this year, per BDA's own announcement) and I do think that it is likely prices will drop on players, probably never below 200 bucks, but they will once the costs are subsidized and the overhead developement costs are payed off.
Unfortuneatly for bluray fans, its the movie costs that are going to force bluray to stay a niche market. Personally, I'm happy with DVD, and plan on upconverting for the long run due to cost... but I know there are many people wanting hi-def out there. They just don't want it at what it costs. HD DVD would have been the smart move for studios pertaining to consumer adoption, and they may or may not have shot themselves in the foot by going with bluray. But at least they've made their decision. Unfortunately it wasn't the consumer friendly one. However, those of us aware of this fact have the free will to choose dvd over bluray so as nice as HD would have been, no one can make us convert to an overly expensive alternative. The difference between bluray and DVD is existent, but pretty minimal on screens below 47" and that is a majority of the middle class public. Personally, I only have a 42" and upconverting looks great. Perhaps if I owned a 50" or larger I would notice a significant difference (as my toshiba player has an excellent upconverter, I don't at the moment) but like me, most don't, and few will be willing to pay 2-3 times the cost for a 15-20% maximum increase in quality of picture.

Matthew: That little disertaion above, and aside from the slanderous comments, is ridiculous. Additionally, and per your own comment, why did you ever bother to buy a high resolution player in the first place? By your own admission, you have one of those "smaller sets" that cannot fully exploit 1080p high-resoultion.

Very simple carl, I got high def for under 150$ with 7 movies (2 in store) and the heroes season 1 on HD DVD. Now, my research on Toshibas upscaling abilities is what sold me on the system, best on the market. But aside from upscaling, I also had the option to buy movies such as transformers on HD. Price for the win.

I didn't mean to insult you, but fanboy seemed the most logical word for the comments I've been reading of late. I am curious as to what part of my arguement is ridiculous, its just an evaluation based on numbers and personal experience. Also, its not that the "smaller sets" don't exploit 1080p... halo 3 looks fantastic in 1080p but I sit much closer to the set than I do when I watch movies. Its more about proximity to the set for movie watching, some people may sit closer than I do so the difference may be much more noticible. I'm just going off of experience and reviews on this data.

First of all, I'm very happy that you're enjoying your Bluray player. Bluray was always my choice for high definition viewing. Bluray price "gouging" is little mote than a new "Urban Legend" that has been spawned by the legion of HD-DVD malcontents. It is their final stab at Sony & Bluray for having prevailed in what was a format war.

Rather than reading BLOGs, like the one directly below, use history and precedence, along with common sense, to dispel these ridiculous claims.

Consider VHS vs. Beta: Shortly after VHS was the apparent format of choice (God knows why?,) VHS players blossomed from every existing consumer electronics firm, and a few up-start companies that used VHS as a platform for success. Players steadily dropped in price for a decade. Today, and assuming you could even find a new one, you could buy a VHS player for next to nothing.

Enter DVD: Same story without the "war issue." DVD players have dropped dramatically in price - we all know that. For an example, my elderly Father bought a 17" Digital SDTV WITH a dedicated DVD player (a "combo, if you will) for $100 and change just before Christmas. Based on that, am guessing that $29.95 (or less) would buy you a functional DVD player as we speak.

Conclusion" Sony and the BDA want to make money - who doesn't? But rather than having to worry about Toshiba anymore, they can turn their attention to their original goal i.e. "Bringing high resolution optical disc to the masses." While admittedly, we will [probably] not see $99 Bluray player for a few years, Sony/BDA will keep current pricing intact until they have established a target market share of hi-def adopters. Then prices will tumble as other "players" enter the game. Manufacturers other than Sony will begin to play the same old inter-corporate pricing game that is always part of marketing a product - whether it's Bluray or Canned Vegetables.

The bottom line is market penetration. Sony and their competitors (including Toshiba) want to render SD DVD as product having reached practical obsolescence, and in doing so, wouldn't dare stretch the consumer too far for sake of consumer abandonment of Bluray. Sony and similar electronics firms know that high definition optical disc is a luxury item. And as the world-wide economy is weak, it would not behoove them to do anything less than sell at the lowest reasonable price point, while still ensuring a profit. Keep in mind also, that under normal circumstances, Toshiba would have NEVER sold their players for the ridiculously low price that they did. This $99-150 per unit benchmark that Toshiba set was entirely unrealistic - and they knew it. It was, as stated within this very forum months ago, a desperation ploy to gain an overwhelming market share with a worst case scenario of dumping excess inventory. It's that simple. I've often wondered what Toshiba would have done to counter their near 0-profit units had HDDVD prevailed? They set a very dangerous pricing precedent and as soon as I became aware of it late last year, I for one, knew that Bluray was going to come out on top. Kudos to Sony for playing this whole thing beautifully -and- don't worry about a thing. Bluray players are actually a bit scarce as they're selling like "hotcakes"- even themselves only have a handful of the $1K+ ES players available for sale - the less expensive models are backordered.

As I had predicted and still more true this week than last, BR prices keep rising now that they have no competition: ntent/view/3642...

Give it up Ron. You have no idea of what you're talking about. Remeber now, your a technical wizard - not an economist or marketing expert, yes? Grab a few back issues of the Wall Street Journal and you'll find that this "war" was over as soon a Toshiba started dropping their per-unit prices drastically.

What is your point. Apparently you have no idea what your reading or talking about. No one mentioned HD DVD or Toshiba at all. The only thing the format war has to do with this at all is that now that it is over I do show to be an economist or marketing expert as you say, as I called it weeks ago that prices would increase with BR if they won the format war. Thank you for noticing; but not understanding.


That about says it all!

The spiraling costs of Blu Ray is also noted here :

http://www.tomshardware.c om/2008/03/12/b...

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