actually what he said could work

No, Nevin you are far from being me or anything like me. Because an instrument of
God is exactly what I am. I'll pray for you and hope that God "Enlightens" you.

Debbie D

Nevin,

I’m confused by your use of the term “Enlightened Philosophy.”  Not all of the philosophers of were atheists or “non-believers” like David Hume.  Many had faith of some sort (and this statement is backed up by history books.)   Now to head off any naysayers, I’m not saying they were Christian, I’m saying they believed in spirituality (some vehemently.) The Enlightenment was an age of reason based on faith, not an age of faith based on reason. It was a time that humanized theological systems, and released individuals from the physical coercion of established religions. The philosophers did not seize control of anything, they helps religion become very personal.  (I’m quite aware that there was more to the Enlightenment than just religious reform, but that is the point of this conversation so we’ll just focus on that.) In fact, Diderot said, “if you forbid me to speak on religion and government, I have nothing to say.”  Other philosophers of the time who believed in a higher power include Voltaire, René Descartes, Pascal, Rousseau, and Benjamin Franklin.  By your terms these men would be considered “religious nuts” too.  Remember that “religious” and “enlightened” are not antonyms.  Also remember that the American forefathers were Christian men who founded a nation on Christian principles. According to your statement this fact means this country is headed for failure. In addition, I’d like to ask you to be more specific when you say that the Enlightenment provided us with “virtually everything in this modern world.”  That is such a vague statement that it really carries very little weight.  I’d also like to point out that Mike W. didn’t say that “air was God” he said God provided it, as he provides everything in this world.  Breathing may not be a miracle to you but I bet a drowning man would think otherwise.  The point is (and it is a point that has been stated here numerous times) that we all have different views on concepts and we should be tolerant of differences.  I only ask that if a person makes a statement they be ready to back it up.

Oh, and by the way, although I referred to myself as a Christian in my previous post, I generally consider myself to be agnostic. By as Phillip Pullman refers to himself as a “Church of England Atheist” so am I a “Southern Baptist Agnostic.”  That being said I reiterate that I had many Christian friends who see these books that way I do. Just because I don’t believe that way others do doesn’t mean I can’t see their point.  I mean, even I believe that the Bible is a historical text (a history book if you will) that was written by humans (which would mean it carries the views of the authors.)  While I've never heard of it being studied in college in history, there are many historical and geographical references in the book that have been proven accurate.  As far as demons, angels, and the other mythological being you mentioned.  Remember that fables were often used to teach lessons--Jesus often employed them.  And who said anything about magical powers?  If you’re speaking about miracles, consider this: on July 28, 2006 Tom Boyle of Tucson lifted a Chevrolet Camaro high enough so that the driver could pull 18-year-old cyclist, Kyle Holtrust away.  Take from the situation what you will, but many believe that miraculous events like that do happen, but not at the whim of a skeptic.

I would address more of your statements but I simply don’t have time to explain the differences between Muslims and Christians nor their views on one another.  I will be happy to follow up on any point of interest at a later time.  These discussions are so thought provoking!  Once again I apologize for any typos and thank you all for your time.

Your the one who believes in magical beings !! Who's the Dunce??Everything Ive said can be backed up with history books, not 2000-4000 year old mythology. Can you prove me wrong historically?It sounds like you are not educated very well.You did not even cite what or where you disagreed with me.I doubt you graduated high school.

God has given YOU and you Enlightened friends air to breath and a mind to think(its too bad you don't use it)God has given you everything in this world to use to help others,who do you think it was who enlightened the forefathers, and who was your forefathers,Christian men.

For me, its the insult against the Enlightened philosophers who gave us everything we have now. I'm tired of standing by while religious nuts destroy the world. They are all the same, no matter the name of their "God".

Merry Christmas to you as well and a happy New Year. Does that surprise you? According to your ancient belief system I shouldnt even be speaking to you. Funny eh?

I do not lump all people of faith under the term "religious nut", just the delusional ones.When I refer to "Gods" I mean all these so called "Gods" the human race have always worshiped. I havnt personally made any major contributions to the human race, I'm just a regular guy.I was referring to the philosophers of the Enlightenment who founded all the modern nations such as the U.S.The only countries founded on religion turned out to be complete failures and still are.I back my statements up with historical fact not thousand year old mythology.When the religious people dominated everything it was called The Dark Ages.When the Enlightened philosophers seized control it was called the Enlightenment.I would consider devils,angels,dragons,and witches, to be mythical beings.They are all in the bible(s).There is no evidence of any of that stuff.If the Ameri-christians and the Muslims believe in the same "God",then why have they always killed each other.I offer you proof---its called a history book.I apoligize if I insulted you, because you dont seem to be delusional.Can you show me anything any "God" have given us?Wheres all those magic powers you people claim to have?The Enlightened philosophers gave us everything while the "believers" were telling us about witches,devils,flat-earth,all the same things those people have always had to give.All the great discoverys were by the Enlightened not the"Believers".Your own bible says "God helps those who help themselves",a very truthful statement because thats all we have--ourselves.I and the other rational people are not going to stand by quietly while you people destroy the world that we(theEnlightened) created. Why cant your "God" or any"God" do just one miracle?How about a cure for cancer or even the common cold?Each and every country was not founded on religion, just the failures.The Founding Fathers were Enlightened, not religious nuts. You mean well, but people like you kept the human race in darkness and ignorance for thousands maybe millions of years.According to your own bible you shouldnt even be disagreeing with a man. You should thank our Enlightened forefathers for giving you the rights you have today.My proof-----History books. Thank you for being rational and not delusional like some of the other people of Faith.